Introduction to the forum
Moderator
Thread Starter
Introduction to the forum
The purpose of this forum is to promote discussion about accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilot ourselves.
We're not here to bad mouth or belittle the event pilot, it could have been you or I, We're here to benefit from the learning opportunity we can draw from the event.
Both current, and historical events, are welcomed for discussion
Some founding principles....
We Do:
We do discuss events in real time - if it happened, we can talk about it, with a few exceptions we'll come to.
We do focus the discussion on what can be learned from the event, good and bad.
We do speculate, and when we do, we state that we are: "I speculate that.....", or "I opine....". If you know nothing more than what you've read here, certainly say so: "Based only upon what I have read on PPRuNe, I speculate that.....". Then everyone knows where everyone stands.
We do discuss accidents which were fatal.
We do own up to our own accidents and close calls, because we're human too - to pretend that we're better than the other pilot is probably wrong, but at least counter productive.
We do draw from and cite accident reports, or other authoritative publications, respecting copyrights, of course.
We do drift threads a bit; "something like that happened to me...." as long as we can drift the thread back to the topic again!
We do restart an older thread, when the report is issued, or at other milestones of the event.
We do cite other similar events, supported by the report if possible, when doing so adds to the benefit of the discussion.
We Do Not:
We do not use the forum as a condolences venue. Of course we are sad and empathetic to the pilot and victims, that is assumed. But we're not here to wade through pages of well meaning sympathy card material, this is a learning place.
We do not present as fact, what we speculate. If something is a fact, be prepared to back it up with an authoritative reference (likely not a PPRuNe post!). If you would like to speculate, just say that you are.
We do not slight, belittle, libel people or organizations involved in the event. They did what they did, and it's fair to assume it was the best thing they could think of at the time. Sober second thought might be very different, and we can learn from that. "What a stupid idiot" has no place here. Hotel lobby rules, would you say in person in a crowded room, including the event pilot and/or their family, what you are going to post?
We do not generalize. Not all aluminum tricycle aircraft emanating from one continent are poorly maintained unsafe spam cans. Poorly maintained aircraft are poorly maintained. "Unsafe" is as much how it is operated.
We fit in to society
PPRuNe may "blackout" a topic during the term of known legal proceedings, simply to allow those to come to an objective conclusion. It is fully intended that discussion would resume following. Thus, the fact that there is a trial, will not be cause to lock a thread, simply to respect a PPRuNe request for a blackout. Anyone can make a post citing an authoritative report that the trial period has been competed, and PPRuNe will call for the restart of discussion.
We post with a professional air in what we write. We are empathetic to our fellow pilots and their families, who could come upon what we post.
And...
All regular PPRuNe posting rules will still apply."
We're not here to bad mouth or belittle the event pilot, it could have been you or I, We're here to benefit from the learning opportunity we can draw from the event.
Both current, and historical events, are welcomed for discussion
Some founding principles....
We Do:
We do discuss events in real time - if it happened, we can talk about it, with a few exceptions we'll come to.
We do focus the discussion on what can be learned from the event, good and bad.
We do speculate, and when we do, we state that we are: "I speculate that.....", or "I opine....". If you know nothing more than what you've read here, certainly say so: "Based only upon what I have read on PPRuNe, I speculate that.....". Then everyone knows where everyone stands.
We do discuss accidents which were fatal.
We do own up to our own accidents and close calls, because we're human too - to pretend that we're better than the other pilot is probably wrong, but at least counter productive.
We do draw from and cite accident reports, or other authoritative publications, respecting copyrights, of course.
We do drift threads a bit; "something like that happened to me...." as long as we can drift the thread back to the topic again!
We do restart an older thread, when the report is issued, or at other milestones of the event.
We do cite other similar events, supported by the report if possible, when doing so adds to the benefit of the discussion.
We Do Not:
We do not use the forum as a condolences venue. Of course we are sad and empathetic to the pilot and victims, that is assumed. But we're not here to wade through pages of well meaning sympathy card material, this is a learning place.
We do not present as fact, what we speculate. If something is a fact, be prepared to back it up with an authoritative reference (likely not a PPRuNe post!). If you would like to speculate, just say that you are.
We do not slight, belittle, libel people or organizations involved in the event. They did what they did, and it's fair to assume it was the best thing they could think of at the time. Sober second thought might be very different, and we can learn from that. "What a stupid idiot" has no place here. Hotel lobby rules, would you say in person in a crowded room, including the event pilot and/or their family, what you are going to post?
We do not generalize. Not all aluminum tricycle aircraft emanating from one continent are poorly maintained unsafe spam cans. Poorly maintained aircraft are poorly maintained. "Unsafe" is as much how it is operated.
We fit in to society
PPRuNe may "blackout" a topic during the term of known legal proceedings, simply to allow those to come to an objective conclusion. It is fully intended that discussion would resume following. Thus, the fact that there is a trial, will not be cause to lock a thread, simply to respect a PPRuNe request for a blackout. Anyone can make a post citing an authoritative report that the trial period has been competed, and PPRuNe will call for the restart of discussion.
We post with a professional air in what we write. We are empathetic to our fellow pilots and their families, who could come upon what we post.
And...
All regular PPRuNe posting rules will still apply."
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Pilot DAR,
May I ask why this is located within a "Non-Airline Forums" and not a general area. As a professional airline and GA pilot I know only to well that accident happen, unfortunately, to all.
May I ask why this is located within a "Non-Airline Forums" and not a general area. As a professional airline and GA pilot I know only to well that accident happen, unfortunately, to all.
Moderator
Thread Starter
This forum is here, rather than in a place for the larger aircraft, as we're creating a venue for discussion of GA VFR and "lite" IFR events. We'd like to focus on those without bringing in the many additional factors which overlay large commercial operations. Of course, there can be major overlaps, and we all benefit from understanding the causes of accidents which are outside our normal flying experience.
However, it can be too easy for the factors which are prominent in GA flying, which are not so much a part of the large commercial operations to get over run with talk of safety management systems, crew resource management, and the like. The single guy/gal taking their buddy for a fly in a light single is their own safety management system and whole crew - so they actually may have a greater burden of managing the flight safely than a managed crew.
So here, we focus on all those factors which gang up, that we have to manage on our own - and how to learn from mistakes, so we don't have to repeat them.
Welcome, share and learn with us.....
However, it can be too easy for the factors which are prominent in GA flying, which are not so much a part of the large commercial operations to get over run with talk of safety management systems, crew resource management, and the like. The single guy/gal taking their buddy for a fly in a light single is their own safety management system and whole crew - so they actually may have a greater burden of managing the flight safely than a managed crew.
So here, we focus on all those factors which gang up, that we have to manage on our own - and how to learn from mistakes, so we don't have to repeat them.
Welcome, share and learn with us.....
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
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Its a private pilot forum against a commercial pilot forum. Most private pilots are sunday afternoon piston powered single engine pilots but not all!
Some fly twins or advanced piston powered pressurised piston aircraft who use their aircraft for business and pleasure. Some fly single engine turbines and some who are very lucky and wealthy fly private in small jets like the CJ1 or Eclipse and do so SP.
Some fly IFR in CAS some fly IFR OCAS some fly exclusively VFR
Are they not covered in this forum? Topics being exclusively for Cessna 150 drivers or Piper Cubs
That maybe is a clarification which need to be made? What is the private pilots forum? and who is it for? Is the forum a GA forum?
I fly two crew PRIVATE jets commercially which are also classified as GA and private although I am paid to fly them for the owners.
What belongs in the Biz Jet forum? A twin engined pressurised turbine like the Kingair? Which is hardly a Biz Jet? There are some pretty grey areas between the two and the problems can be similar with lessons to be learnt across the board
Pace
Some fly twins or advanced piston powered pressurised piston aircraft who use their aircraft for business and pleasure. Some fly single engine turbines and some who are very lucky and wealthy fly private in small jets like the CJ1 or Eclipse and do so SP.
Some fly IFR in CAS some fly IFR OCAS some fly exclusively VFR
Are they not covered in this forum? Topics being exclusively for Cessna 150 drivers or Piper Cubs
That maybe is a clarification which need to be made? What is the private pilots forum? and who is it for? Is the forum a GA forum?
I fly two crew PRIVATE jets commercially which are also classified as GA and private although I am paid to fly them for the owners.
What belongs in the Biz Jet forum? A twin engined pressurised turbine like the Kingair? Which is hardly a Biz Jet? There are some pretty grey areas between the two and the problems can be similar with lessons to be learnt across the board
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 26th May 2015 at 11:59.
Moderator
Thread Starter
There is no intent to exclude any accident which a "non airline" (and non military) pilot would like to discuss here. We're just not trying to attract protracted discussion which usually results when there is a "big" accident, much of which might not be relevant to GA flying.
However, if causal factors of an airline or military accident are thought to be relevant to GA flying, by all means, please start a thread.
It will be the intent that discussions of new GA accidents, which thus far have found their way to the PF forum, are better placed here. Moderators may move such new threads from PF to this forum. A decision was taken to not move over "old" accident threads from PF to this forum, however, if an old accident thread finds new life in PF, it might be moved to this forum for context.
An example which comes to my mind was decades ago: A fatal helicopter "accident" in Canada was presented in a helicopter pilot's safety bulletin. This one was odd; Bell 206 found slid on in a light bush area in the far north. Zero damage to the helicopter, sole occupant pilot dead, but with no sign of injury whatever, wearing helmet. He died of a brain trauma, but not on that flight. It turned out he had an unreported weeks previous head injury while playing with his kids in the back garden. It just took that long to affect him - he died during the flight! That was not a helicopter accident, it was a flying [medical] accident, of which all pilots should be aware. It would have happened in whatever aircraft type he had been flying.
Discussions of that type are very welcomed here - no aircraft type excluded, GA just needs "its" place for these discussions too! Certainly, if this new forum triggers any questions, do ask....
However, if causal factors of an airline or military accident are thought to be relevant to GA flying, by all means, please start a thread.
It will be the intent that discussions of new GA accidents, which thus far have found their way to the PF forum, are better placed here. Moderators may move such new threads from PF to this forum. A decision was taken to not move over "old" accident threads from PF to this forum, however, if an old accident thread finds new life in PF, it might be moved to this forum for context.
An example which comes to my mind was decades ago: A fatal helicopter "accident" in Canada was presented in a helicopter pilot's safety bulletin. This one was odd; Bell 206 found slid on in a light bush area in the far north. Zero damage to the helicopter, sole occupant pilot dead, but with no sign of injury whatever, wearing helmet. He died of a brain trauma, but not on that flight. It turned out he had an unreported weeks previous head injury while playing with his kids in the back garden. It just took that long to affect him - he died during the flight! That was not a helicopter accident, it was a flying [medical] accident, of which all pilots should be aware. It would have happened in whatever aircraft type he had been flying.
Discussions of that type are very welcomed here - no aircraft type excluded, GA just needs "its" place for these discussions too! Certainly, if this new forum triggers any questions, do ask....
There are universal lessons but there are also aircraft specific lessons.
I posted a thread that took my experience in a large 2 crew aircraft, but applied the lesson to what I thought was what should be done in light aircraft. The next several posts pointed out that my advice was not appropriate to multi crew jet aircraft. If the test for relavence is can the lesson be applied to every aircraft in every possible circumstance, then I think this forum is not going to fulfill its full potential.
I would suggest that if a topic is intended for one segment of private aircraft then replies be appropriate to that segment. If the lesson is going to be applied in a totally different context than it would be better, IMO, to start a new thread.
I posted a thread that took my experience in a large 2 crew aircraft, but applied the lesson to what I thought was what should be done in light aircraft. The next several posts pointed out that my advice was not appropriate to multi crew jet aircraft. If the test for relavence is can the lesson be applied to every aircraft in every possible circumstance, then I think this forum is not going to fulfill its full potential.
I would suggest that if a topic is intended for one segment of private aircraft then replies be appropriate to that segment. If the lesson is going to be applied in a totally different context than it would be better, IMO, to start a new thread.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 26th May 2015 at 17:40.
