Originally Posted by MarkerInbound
Yes. There are two ways it can be done. The "safety pilot" in the right seat can be the PIC of the flight and as such can log the flight as PIC. Since the pilot in the left seat is "sole manipulator" of the flight controls they can log the the time as PIC. Or the pilot in the left seat can be the PIC. Since a "safety pilot" is required while a pilot flys under the hood, the pilot in the right seat can log SIC time for that time while the left seat pilot is under the hood.
Typical internet discussion. First response is 100% correct, all following posts are incorrect to varying degrees.
Ejector, as Markerinbound said, what the flight school is proposing is in fact legal under the FAA regulations. For verification see the legal opinion at the end of this post from the FAA's office of Chief counsel. (the only entity in the FAA authorized to interpret regulations. FSDO inspectors may not interpret regulations. If they do, their interpretation has no legal standing) Particularly read the text in red.
Originally Posted by Sevenstrokeroll
wait a second...if both pilots are PPL single engine land, there can be only one pilot in command. and you better decide before you takeoff who that is.
True, but irrelevant to the question asked. You may, under the FAA regulations have more than one pilot *logging* PIC at the same time. Doesn't make sense to me, but then nobody asked me. Regardless it's true. See the Chief Counsel interpretation below.
Originally Posted by Sevenstrokeroll
the right seat guy really can't be PIC unless he is a CFI or better.
Nope, not true. A safety pilot who is fully qualified to be PIC in the airplane may be designated the PIC for the flight. Noting in the regulations requires an instructor certificate. Again, this is covered in the Chief Counsel interpretation copied below.
Originally Posted by MarkerInbound
7Stroke, you're right, the non-flying pilot can't log the time if they only hold a private certificate. You have to move up a couple certificatges to do that.
Ooooohhhhhh..... and you were doing so well with your first post. Shoulda stopped while you were ahead.
Anyway, not true, see discussion directly above and legal interpretation below.
Originally Posted by darkroomsource
Some of the confusion probably comes from the fact that the rulings change fairly recently (within the last couple years).
It USED to be that both pilots could be without an IR.
NOW, the safety pilot must be IR (and rated in the aircraft as well, but since we're talking about a C152 this doesn't apply here)
Nope. Might be true in the UK or Kenya, but not in the US. Here's the text of the relevant regulation. You'll notice that there is no requirement for anyting other then a private pilot certificate
91.109
(a) and (b) not relevant to discussion.
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
Originally Posted by darkroomsource
You don't have to specify which pilot is PIC for logging, both can log PIC while the limiting device is in place. (You SHOULD define the PIC prior to the flight for purposes of who's in charge if something happens)
Yeah, you do. That is an essential element that allows both to log PIC, otherwise the safety pilot may only log SIC time. See legal interpretation below.
Originally Posted by Sevenstrokeroll
I told him he was not giving me dual and he could log SIC if he liked due to company requirements.
Actually, no, he couldn't log SIC. In order to log SIC a pilot must be required by the *regulations* (not by company policy, insurance requirements, etc. ) Rule of thumb: if the other guy can legally make the flight without you, you aren't a required crew member, and you can't log SIC time.
Part 61.51
(a)-(e) not relevant to discussion.
(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.
Originally Posted by Ejector
I find this disturbing in may ways,
Yeah, me too. I have a problem with logging PIC time when you aren't the PIC, and there's only ever one, by definition. Doesn't change anything. The fact remains, it's perfectly legal.
Legal Interpretation # 92-52
October 30, 1992
Mr. David M. Reid
Dear Mr. Reid:
Thank you for your letter of June 12, 1992, concerning the
logging of pilot-in-command (PIC) time under the Federal Aviation
Regulations (FAR).
In your letter you ask four questions. First, you ask whether
there are "any circumstances when, during a normal flight, two
Private Pilots may simultaneously act as (and therefore log the
time as) Pilot-In-Command?" The answer is two private pilots may
not simultaneously act as PIC but they may, under certain
circumstances, simultaneously log PIC time.
There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible
for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.
FAR 61.51 deals with logging PIC flight time, and it provides
that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that
flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the
controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the
sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the
flight is conducted. It is important to note that FAR 61.51 only
regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements
toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight
experience.
Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC
simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight
time simultaneously.
PIC flight time may be logged by both the
PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft
during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot
who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft
for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51. Enclosed please
find two prior FAA interpretations concerning logging of PIC
time. We hope that these will be of further assistance to you.
In your second question you ask "[h]ow shall two Private Pilots
log their flight time when one pilot is under the hood for
simulated instrument time and the other pilot acts as safety
pilot?" The answer is the pilot who is under the hood may log
PIC time for that flight time in which he is the sole manipulator
of the controls of the aircraft, provided he is rated for that
aircraft. The appropriately rated safety pilot may concurrently
log as second in command (SIC) that time during which he is
acting as safety pilot.
The two pilots may, however, agree prior to initiating the flight
that the safety pilot will be the PIC responsible for the
operation and safety of the aircraft during the flight. If this
is done, then the safety pilot may log all the flight time as PIC
time in accordance with FAR 1.1 and the pilot under the hood may
log, concurrently, all of the flight time during which he is the
sole manipulator of the controls as PIC time in accordance with
FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i). Enclosed please find a prior FAA
interpretation concerning the logging of flight time under
simulated instrument flight conditions. We hope that this
interpretation will be of further assistance to you.
In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how
shall a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time:
Pilot-In-Command time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual
Instrument time, when that pilot is ... A) ... under the hood?
B) ...in actual instrument conditions? C) ... under the hood in
actual instrument conditions?" The answer is the VFR private
pilot may log all of the flight time you described as PIC flight
time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) if he was the sole manipulator of
the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated. Under FAR
61.51(c)(4) the pilot may log as instrument flight time only that
time during which he operates the aircraft solely by reference to
instruments, under actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions. Please note that the FARs do not distinguish between
"actual" and "simulated" instrument flight time. Enclosed is a
prior FAA interpretation concerning the logging of instrument
flight time. We hope this interpretation will further assist
you.
Finally you ask "[d]oes FAR 61.57 affect how the VFR Private
Pilot shall log Pilot-In-Command time during instrument training,
either before or after meeting the 6/6/6 requirement, and if so,
how?" FAR 61.57 does not affect how a pilot logs PIC time during
instrument training; FAR 61.51(c)(2) and (4) govern logging of
instrument flight time. FAR 61.57(e) provides currency
requirements for acting as PIC under instrument flight rules
(IFR) or in weather conditions less than the minimums for visual
flight rules (VFR). Enclosed please find a prior FAA
interpretation on instrument flight time and FAR 61.57(e). We
hope this interpretation will further assist you.
We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.
Sincerely,
/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division