mephisto88

Concerning discretion, I'm not sure wether I interpreted the messiah's words incorrectly.
If I'm wrong, I apologise to you in advance, however I do not believe the crew have to
agree to 'accept' it in the sense I think was portrayed. .

Commanders discretion is just that - plain and simple.
It is the COMMANDER who is deciding wether or not to use HIS discretion concerning
whatever the situation may be.

Clearly as others have implied, it is not a simple matter of "oh well we only need to extend
by 1hr and 40 minutes and all will be well, so just get back in the seat laddie, and lets be
away".
A good Commander will not only look at the legalities of any situation, but the practicalities
also, after all he is there additionally to look after the parts of the big picture that Thomo
didnt take.

Now any guy in the left seat worth his salt, will no doubt take into account, all the aspects
such as, but not limited to:
i)Firstly, is it legal, and is it sensible - if not both, the pub beckons!
ii)If discretion is not used, what are the options as far as passengers go.
iii)Aircraft serviceability, weather, and upcoming workload on the next approach.
iv)Length of preceeding duty, body clock time.
v)How much extra time will actually be required to complete the req'd task.
vi)Wether the cabin crew, if discretion is used, would be on the ball in the event of a
landing incident and having to pop the slides.

Occasionally, there may be no good solution, just a motley range of poor and diverse options.
In cases such as this, thats why the skipper carries the can, and after all those, and probably
many more aspects I've ommited, have been weighed up, he then decides wether to exercise
HIS discretion.

Now that said, it would be a less than wise skipper, who when assessing his crew, (were they
to tell him how fatigued they were from the flight just carried out, unable to rest in the 2 star
Worst Western motor Inn, been sick from the Delhi trots), decides that discretion is the way
to go, especially when significant future risk can be negated or even avoided by
deplanning the 80 pax into the airport hotel, and setting off for HK many hours later after a
suitable crew rest, ideally in a different hotel than the pax.

Conversely, you've just had the pleasure of experiencing a Cargo fire warning, dropped into
Shemya,experienced their finest winter weather, luckily your deadheading engineer has found
it was a false warning caused by a dodgy detector. Suitably isolated, (both your detector and
the jet full of anxious self-loaders in the northern pacific winter), you now realise you are soon
to be out of hours. Again, there may be no correct answer, but trying to accomodate 280 pax
in a Shemya winter, is at best fruitless, and at worst could be downright dangerous. The
skipper may well be faced with crew who are unhappy to go on, but I would suggest that
discretion to at least get to Anchorage for example may be the lesser of the evils.

Admittedly, the above are somewhat extreme examples, but the facts remain, that it is the
Commander who will decide if discretion is to be used. It does NOT have to be accepted
per se by the crew. The fact that most situations lie in the middle of such extremes does
little to point the decision making in the right direction, which is why the skipper should always
canvass all thoughts and opinions to ensure he can make an informed and reasoned decision.

That said, if an individual decides to vote with his feet and walk off the flight deck, there
probably isn't much one can do about that. It's not the military, and even though one could
point to the regs in the books concerning the authority of the Commander and how the crew
are required to follow lawful orders, the Company hasn't shot somebody for dereliction of duty
for a while now.
Whilst the individual deserter will clearly be required to justify his actions to the grown-ups,
the skipper may possibly be invited for a chat too!
So gents decide carefully, I know whose shoes I'd rather to be in!

Finally, yes we have some young skippers, and some local skippers, and genuinely I mean
no insult, because in this job, we all learn by both our own and others experiences. However,
anecdotally, a level of 'keen-ness' beyond common sense occasionally appears evident,
where they are ultra-keen to help the company out, as they may believe by opting for the
10hr rest with a pub full of pax may be a black mark in their book. For those who are so
inclined, you will guarantee more of a black mark by pressing on unnecesarily and incurring
an incident where fatigue may be later pointed to as a significant factor. One cast-iron
guarantee that you will have, is that the company will isolate themselves from you faster than
you can say profit share, by saying well it was the Commanders choice to use his discretion.

So before it gets to that stage is where ALL the other crew need to step up and speak out in
the decision phase to ensure all points are raised, reasonable and otherwise.
Then listen to the skippers decision.

After that there's two choices, you agree with him and fly, or, you pack your bags and walk.

Apolgies for serious thread drift of war and peace dimensions
Brgds to all.

(Sounds of stepping down off soap box and retiring to don steel helmet....)